TRANSCRIPT
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The Rabbi Daniel Lapin Podcast
Episode: If You Hate Israel, You Hate Civilization
Date: 04/04/25 Length: 01:02:26
Daniel Lapin 0:01
Welcome everybody to the Rabbi Daniel Lapin show, where I your rabbi, reveal how the world really works. And today I have both a personal and a professional pleasure, personal, because Josh Hammer is an old friend, professional, because he's written a very important book that fits right into the theme of how the world really works. And I'm absolutely thrilled Josh. Thank you very much indeed for making time to be on the show. And the book is called Israel and civilization, the fate of the Jewish nation and the destiny of the West. And there you can see it on your screens right in front of you. This is terrific, Josh. Is it your first major book?
Josh Hammer 1:00
It is rabbi, and it's wonderful to be with you. Thank you so much for having me. I really, I've been a fan of your work for a very long time. Thank you. In fact, I'm sure when you were, when you were reading this book, I'm sure you saw some, some of your teachings over the years kind of weave their way throughout, a little bit, lurking in the background there, so
Daniel Lapin 1:16
it's happily familiar. Yes, it was wonderful. And, you know, we're telling the truth. So it's, it's, it's pretty straightforward. The puzzle to me is, how on earth the other folks see it the wrong way? But we'll, we'll still, we'll come to that. It's, it's a good few years since we were actually together in the same room, but, but we will, we will renew that when we, either of us, travels in the right direction.
Josh Hammer 1:53
Certainly, certainly, how hard
Daniel Lapin 1:56
was it to write?
Josh Hammer 1:59
Well, you know, Rabbi, I am a writer partially by professional Of course,
Daniel Lapin 2:03
you're a journalist and you are an editor, the editor at Newsweek,
Josh Hammer 2:08
correct. I'm senior editor at large in Newsweek. I write a weekly syndicated column through creator syndicate. I've been writing that weekly column for seven years now. I've written law review essays. I'm testing a lawyer by background. I've written any number of pieces of long form legal scholarship. So I had essentially written everything other than a book. And I knew that, I knew that writing at least one book, God willing, there will be more, was something that I wanted to do. So this is my, my very first actual book, and it was a it was an interesting process, I mean, different than any other writing process by definition that I have done before. But I'm really, really pleased with how it came out. I'm genuinely good
Daniel Lapin 2:48
reason. It's, it's readable, it's packaged correctly. I i was able to easily follow the case and the argument, and it's very, very persuasive.
Josh Hammer 3:00
I appreciate that. And the book is meant to be readable, because I'm trying to reach the masses. I mean, you know, this is not an abstruse piece of of biblical or historical scholarship. I'm really trying to to make a case to to layman, essentially. I mean, for Jews, Christians, like anyone who cares about the fate of Western civilization, that's right, that's that's really who's who the audience is for this book. And you know, Praise, be to praise be to God. The sales thus far have been tremendous. We actually reached a number high last week of number three book on all of amazon.com number two in non fiction, which is pretty astonishing, especially these days for for a title where the word Israel in the title, given the polarizing nature, at least to some people these days, remarkable.
Daniel Lapin 3:45
Do you know how many books? You probably know this, not many people do they how many books are published every year in English in the world? I
Josh Hammer 3:54
do not know the answer to that. Actually, about 2 million. Wow.
Daniel Lapin 3:58
It's very, very high. It's a huge number. Now, if you were to take a big jar and fill it nearly to the top with water and then take 100th of a teaspoon of oil and add a little blue food coloring and pour it into the top of the jar, you will now have a big jar filled with water and a microscopically thin layer of blue oil on the top that's probably only a few molecules thick. The water represents all the books that are published every year, and that microscopic blue layer is the number of books that it's worth taking note of, because that includes self publishing all kinds of things. So your book is right there in the blue oil layer.
Josh Hammer 4:48
Thank you now, thank you very much.
Daniel Lapin 4:50
Absolutely. So those are great figures you dedicated to your daughter, Esther. Yes, who is how old now?
Josh Hammer 4:59
Uh, Esther's is three and a half months old, actually, yes. Oh
Daniel Lapin 5:03
my goodness, congratulations. Thank you. Thank you. That is terrific. Somehow or another. Maybe it was, I'm not sure if it was in the book or if I knew it from elsewhere, but you proposed to your wife in Jerusalem.
Josh Hammer 5:19
Yes. That's also in the book. I believe I discussed it in the penultimate chapter, which I which I knew, I knew I read it. Yeah, I titled the that chapter the Maccabean imperative. So, so you know, Rabbi, my last name is hammer. So my Hebrew name for most of my life has has been Maccabee, actually, because, because Judah the Maccabee was nicknamed Judah the hammer. We think it's because of the Aramaic although no one's quite entirely certain. So many events I proposed to my wife in Jerusalem at the ASHA Torah balcony overlooking the hotel the Western Wall. I'm sure I'm not the first Jew, and I won't be the last Jew to propose to his wife there at that particular spot, but it happened to be the third night of Hanukkah also, which really made the whole kind of the whole kind of Maccabean aspect of it really, kind of all the more powerful. So, so the full story is, you know, my in my in laws graciously helped me prepare and make the balcony a little more festive with flowers and balloons and all of that there. Wow. So she immediately realized what was happening when we stepped foot onto the balcony. But because I am a writer, and this is what I do for a living, I had, I had prepared a short, a short speech that I said before physically dropping on one neither I frankly, Rabbi to this day, don't think that she heard a word. I said. She just wanted to say, will you marry she just want me to say, will you marry me, which, of course, I got to maybe a couple minutes later.
Daniel Lapin 6:34
And what was the gist of the of the speech? Josh, I didn't not to say the whole thing now, but if it wasn't too private, what? What will what? What were you saying? Sure,
Josh Hammer 6:44
so I talked a little bit about the about the importance of being a Maccabee and just the importance of Hanukkah, and just the story of Hanukkah on standing defiantly for Torah and for the Jewish people. I'm Israel. Call Israel against those who seek to assembly. But I also just noted that there we are in Jerusalem this, this is the Jewish people's eternal home. And I kind of connected that then to to being at home with with her, to being like at home in a symbolic sense, Jerusalem is, is our eternal home for our people. But then I can connect that back to our, you know, Shalom bait and kind of just our sense of homeliness here, on the home front, there and then. And then it was time to finally drop on. Wendy,
Daniel Lapin 7:26
great. Well, congratulations on, on all the wonderful developments, the birth of a baby and the birth of your first book, first of many to come, I'm sure, God willing, and so. So so there we are, Israel and civilization and and then, of course, the subside of the fate of the Jewish nation and the destiny of the West.
Daniel Lapin 7:58
I've argued written, said, many times that one of the biggest problems confronting academia is explaining the disparity in performance between as Neil Ferguson put it, the West and the Rest. The fact is that 10s of 1000s of people have drowned in the Mediterranean in little boats. And the question I put to people is, do you think they drowned in an effort to get from Europe to North Africa, or did they drown in an effort to get from North Africa to Europe? Or is it 5050? Half of the people who drowned in the Mediterranean were desperately trying to get to Algeria, and half the people were desperately trying to get to the island of Lampedusa in Italy. And of course, the answer is they were only trying to go in one direction. And why? Well, they wanted to go where the money is. Yeah, I know, but that just postpones the question, why is the money in Europe and not in Africa and academia essentially ignores this question, because they are terrified that the answer is that people with dark skins aren't smart enough to make money. They because racism resides in academia and the left, they literally are terrified of this question, because they're quite sure that that is the answer. And the answer, of course, is nothing to do with skin color and nothing to do with racial or ethnic origins. The answer is that this is me talking now, and. A I'm leading up to, tossing it to you for your reaction to what I'm going to say. And so the answer, I believe, is that the Bible is the source of civilization and and the the civilization we see, and I'm speaking at the moment, particularly in economic terms, but it applies across every index of civilization, the countries and places that had access to the Bible, or, even more strongly, countries upon whose whose culture was based upon the Bible. These are the countries that are better off to such an extent that colonies, countries that were former British colonies in Africa that were formed as part of Britain's attempt to spread biblical gospel to Africa. To this very day, are countries that do far better than countries that were established by other Imperial nations where the Bible was not as center focused as it was in the United Kingdom and Great Britain, so and so. One of the simplest and glaringly obvious examples of how it is that the Bible is what creates civilization is in the sexual area, and that is that introducing, as it does in Leviticus, not once but twice, a list of prohibited relationships, including all in what today we call incestuous relationships, and so no relationships with sisters and siblings and and daughters and mother, all of this is off the table. Now. When I was a kid, I used to say to myself, why? Like, who'd even want to have a relationship with your sister? I mean, it's Ooh, you know, gross. And so why does it have to tell us this? But in an effort to find good in everything, the terrible world of pornography tells us that there is, in fact, a very powerful human drive to have sex in men with almost anybody, female, primarily, including sisters. And sure enough, to my surprise, and in a way, not surprise, sure enough, there's a whole genre of pornography having to do with incestuous relationship. So obviously, the default human condition is indeed to be drawn to that. And so until 3300 odd years ago, when the Torah makes its appearance, people did not have this restriction. And so every girl in a family had to sleep with one eye open if she had siblings or uncles or anything, because that's normal. That's how it was, and it was perfectly normal. And for men, it was paradise. Sexual availability was everywhere, and so not surprisingly, we have this wonderful verse, which I want to point out, it's after the Torah is given, and we're actually in a in the book of Numbers. Listen to this, Josh, the book of Numbers. CHAPTER 11. And I'm going to say this would be verse chapter 11. Let's find this and verse 10. Listen to this. I'm going to say it in the Hebrew, although our listeners, for the most part, do not know Hebrew yet, right? Happy Warriors, I say yet, but, but then I'll translate it. 1110, [Hebrew speaking]. And the English is and Moses heard the people weeping on account of families. And what does that mean? On account of families? Well, on account of these new laws that placed huge restrictions on families. The Israelites had just spent hundreds of years in Egypt, and they saw and maybe to some extent, participated. This was absolutely normal for men. Sex was available anywhere, and along comes the 10 Commandments and the whole Torah and the and Moses says, Sorry. Take a look at this list. No sisters, no daughters, no daughters in law, nothing. No wonder they cry. That's a real crimp in your lifestyle. But it's more important than that, because, and this is something I sometimes say to women audiences, and I say, look, there's lots of things men don't get about women, and we just have to live with that. But here's something you don't get about men. You literally have no idea if you are married to a good man. You have no idea what it means for him to turn down the many opportunities he gets in any normal day, particularly wearing a wedding ring. It's a babe magnet, and you have to know that your husband is a nobleman, because you don't understand what it's like to be male and to have a male sex drive. And so I ask, What possibility is there of somebody settling down to do his homework. A 16 year old boy comes home and the choice is going for his stepsister or his real sister or settling down to do an hour and a half of math homework. It's not even a toss up. It's the it's it's undoable. You cannot beat it. And so what I'm basically saying is that boys with no civilizational impetus to keep the sexual sex drive very constrained, stands no chance of progressing. So in a nutshell that I'm saying that the reason, or one main reason, why countries and societies that were based on a Judeo Christian bible base achieved
Daniel Lapin 17:42
economic systems and art galleries and boulevards and the industrial revolution and everything else is because they were not sexually focused. 24/7, and that is an imposition strictly of biblical civilization. Over to you.
Josh Hammer 18:04
I think that's utterly brilliant. What you've what you've just laid out. I mean, you know, I would hardly be the first person to note that the institution of marriage, well, it exists for numerous reasons. But among the reasons that it exists, of course, is to is to contain this, infamous male, male sex drive that has existed since, since Genesis, literally, I mean, since, since man was first formed there, yeah, and, you know, more, more generally speaking there, I love the way that you kind of just logically flowed and did that all out there. That is the difference between the West and the Rest. I have a whole chapter earlier in this book, chapter three of the book, which really kind of lays out the political and legal philosophy of Halacha, Jewish law. And we talk about Judaism's view of carnal pleasure, and, frankly, of just a pleasure in general. And the upshot is that pleasure has to be oriented towards certain ends. You know, to kind of crassly borrow from, from some Greek thought. I mean, Aristotle called this the telos. I mean, what is the pleasure oriented towards? Is it oriented towards just ends or not? That's, that's, that's more or less the Holocaust view. When it, when it, when it comes to such things as human pleasure? Is it oriented towards serving godly, divine, and ultimately doing everything that we can to sanctify his name and to do His will. But, you know, it's not just sex drive, right? I mean, we see this, this influence of the Bible in so many ways that I think many of us, or many people today, just take for granted, and really that maybe above all was one of the things that I was trying to do with this book, especially in some of these kind of meteored, philosophically denser earlier chapters, is really just trying to remind people, you know, you think about this, but you probably don't think about that. It actually comes from this. So let's just take one example. Here. I went to public school. I've only. Become religious praise God in more recent years, right? So in public school, I learned when I was five or six years old in kindergarten about the golden rule do is treat others as you would like to be treated. But in the public school I went to, I certainly was not told that. What is the actual source of this maxim, this extraordinarily important rule that does more than perhaps anything else in a free and flourishing society to sustain the interdependent bonds of loyalty between the citizens that really cohere and make a citizenry, a citizenry. Well, it's actually downstream of the Book of Leviticus. I mean, it's chapter 19, that you shall treat a stranger as your fellow. That's essentially the golden rule. That is, that is, that is, that is basically the biblical predecessor to what today we call the golden rule. And on and on and on it goes. You know, Daniel, I'm kind of a political commentator as well. And our lawyers, I've been talking a lot over the past couple of years about the unprecedented law fair against against President Donald Trump. And one refrain that we heard from our friends on the left over and over and over again over the past couple of years is no one is above the law. They love to say no one is above the law there. Well, I agree with that, actually. But more to the point there, more relevant for our purposes. Where do you guys think that's what that's coming from, this notion that the President or the monarch, the king, is not above the law, that's from the book of Deuteronomy. That's literally from the book of Deuteronomy. In fact, if you want to trace it, trace it back in the Anglo American tradition. There it was a 15th century, 14th to 15th century British Conservative by the name of John Fortescue that he actually said this. He literally said that is part of the English common law that the king is not above the law because we're getting our values from the book of Deuteronomy. He literally cites Deuteronomy. So, you know, it's funny, if our friends on the left understood that that talking point from the Bible, perhaps they would be more reticent to invoke it. But no matter where you look, whether it's day to day human interactions, the golden rule, whether it's constitutional structure, so much of what we take for granted they is based on the values and the precepts and the principles right there in the Bible, and especially in a very confused day and age today, where we have resurgence nihilism and Neo Nietzsche in sentiment, in certain corners, where we have certain other provocateurs who who are trying to drive a wedge between the two biblical religions, between Judaism and Christianity. It was time, I think, for someone to write a book trying to put Humpty Dumpty back together again. And that's essentially the ambitious task that I've taken upon myself in Israel and civilization.
Daniel Lapin 22:43
Josh, one of the things that when, when people tell me about book projects that they hope to undertake, you will discover now, as a published author, a lot of people, when you meet socially, you know, let me tell you something. There's a book I'm hoping to write. What do you think? And then they'll tell you, but the invariably, the description goes on until you're going to miss the last bus home. And so my response is always the same. I say, tell you what I'd love to hear about your book, but here's the way that it's going to work. Best go into the corner there, or go to another room and get a piece of paper and write down the description of your book using only 50 words, and then show me. And when I can read it in 50 words, I'll be able to tell you what I think I'll tell you, but your description is is too long and convoluted. So you've got a published book. So obviously, everything is in place as it should be, and it's a fabulous book. Thank you. What would be the 50 word description of your book?
Josh Hammer 24:06
Well, don't hold me to the exact 50 word count, but I will certainly do the best I can. You know us talkers, Rabbi. I host two shows. We tend towards prolixity and loquaciousness, so, but but I will do the best I can here. So people
Daniel Lapin 24:22
sometimes say to me, you know, but by Josh, I'll tell you that if I have one guest on on my show every 15 to 20 weeks, that's about it. I don't have a guest very often at all. And people like, Well, how do you do it without a guest? Not a problem. I don't run out of material. But then partly what I'm speaking about is of infinite size anyway, so not a problem, but I know what you mean. So go ahead. What is the the short description
Josh Hammer 24:53
of Sure. So the description is essentially that Western civilization, as we call it today. Is predicated upon the Bible, and the biblical inheritance is the defining feature of Western civilization. The people of Israel, the Jewish nation, are the original recipients of God's word of the Bible. And without, without this, without the Jewish people and without the original providence of the Bible, the Hebrew Bible, we are not going to be anything at all there. And then, I'm probably seeing 50 words already. But then, on a geopolitical level, the state of Israel is simply that, just playing out on a global chessboard. It's the exact same description how if you, if you cut off the torso, then the limb will not exist there. It's the exact same way on the geopolitical chessboard as well. If you cut off the State of Israel, which really I argue in the book, going back to King David united the tribes of Israel in Jerusalem, is the, is the is the classic antiquity predecessor of the modern nation state, if you forsake the world's oldest nation, then nothing is nothing good is going to happen when it comes to the future of the nation state as well there. So that's the basic argument, Rabbi. It's calling for a Jewish Christian Alliance when it comes to a joint ecumenical biblical restoration. And without that, I deeply fear for the future of the United States and the future of this very civilization that, again, is predicated upon the
Daniel Lapin 26:25
Bible. The organization I have the privilege of leading is called the American Alliance of Jews and Christians, and I always refer to it as a brotherhood of destiny. I think that in every time in Jewish history, whenever the people of Israel have faced huge peril, there has always been some act of God that has brought about a salvation the middle of the 20th century saw the wiping out of a large part of the structured Jewish community as it has existed in Europe for 2000 years. And if anybody would have said to you, you know, in september 1945 Japan is surrendered. Germany surrendered a few months ago, and the the Jewish people are reeling, trying to absorb the enormity of what happened. And somebody will say to you, you know, in 50 years, there's going to be a vibrant modern State of Israel where the official language is Hebrew and the flag is the star of David. Anybody would have thought you're mad, and I have a new found respect for for the founder of modern Zionism. I I've just said I have a respect for it, but I can't mention, I can't say his name, Herzl. Theodore Herzl, thank you. Theodore Herzl, in the early 1900s is already envisaging a land of Israel. It's really quite remarkable. But the reason I mention all of this is that there is a piece of ancient Jewish wisdom in a mid rush, which has Jacob talking to God, and God is saying, Listen, your children are going to face many, many enemies down the road they're going to face at one point, they're going to face the wolf and the bear. And from the descriptions of the wolf, it's clear that this means Nazi Germany, and it's not an accident that Hitler's headquarters was called the wolf Slayer, and the bear, of course, is the Russian bear. And so Jacob says, I'm sorry, God, I this maybe, maybe my descendants are going to be able to fight off the wolf they're going to fight. But once you tell me they're both of them in the same period of history, I don't get it. We're doomed. And God smile says, relax, don't worry. At a crucial moment, I will turn them from allies into enemies. And in the early and dark years of World War Two, there was. The the von Ribbentrop treaty between Germany and Russia. It was a peace treaty Germany and Russia were planning to carve Europe up between them and Jews. Once it began to be clear what Stalin and Hitler both felt about Jews. Things looked very, very grim. And then in the middle of June 1941 the weirdest thing happens, Hitler launches an unprovoked attack on the Soviet Union. Extraordinary. And what's so bizarre about it is that England was on its knees at that point, and the mid rush actually alludes to the word Baba Rosa, which turns out to have been the code name for the attack on Russia. And so I often think to myself, my great grandfather would have read that Midrash, and he wouldn't have understood it because it hadn't happened yet in history. But the the Torah is for all places and all times, and much hasn't yet happened in the unfolding of history. And so, yeah, why did Hitler astound the Wehrmacht astonish Stalin and the whole world by not finishing off England, but suddenly turning in June against Russia, like what about Napoleon 1812 did Hitler not understand its sheer folly to attack Russia no earlier than the summer, and sure enough, the very first losses that the Nazis ever suffered were at The hands of the Russians. I say this because you spoke of this alliance Israel and the West. And I deeply believe, no I more strongly than believe, I know that God has created this alliance between Jews and Christians at this time in history, in a way that many people who are still going through life using a rear view mirror instead of the windshield, they can't relate to this idea that Christians who ran the Inquisition and Christians who ran the pogroms of York in the 12th century are, all of a sudden the people who are the only allies that the Jewish people have right now. Yes, no. What do you say?
Josh Hammer 32:59
1,000% and you know, Rabbi, I talk in the book a little bit about how I've been a staunch proponent of Jewish Christian relations for my entire life, going back to my earliest memories as a child, where my best friend from childhood was himself, a religious Christian, and many of my best friends in life to this day, my best friend from law school, devout Evangelical Christian, Many, many of just the greatest people I know are religious Christians. Many are, of course, Jews as well, but many of them are absolutely religious Christians. And look, I mean, you're right to point out that we're at a specific moment in history, because you allude to the Inquisition. I mean, it's obviously true that that Jews and Christians have have had their Spats in in the past, but, but, but praise be to God, has not been that way for a very for a long time now, certainly here in the United States, I mean, the brand of Christianity that has always flourished, that has always taken root and flourished Here in the United States is, is a distinctly pro Hebrew Bible, pro children of Israel, pro Jewish people, Philo Semitic strand of Christianity. It's been that way ever since the beginning, by the old
Daniel Lapin 34:12
Old Testament Christians, exactly right, by the way. Josh, you probably know this. Do you that in all of history, there has never been a Protestant pogrom against Jews.
Josh Hammer 34:25
I didn't know that actually, but I'm not surprised to hear that Martin Luther
Daniel Lapin 34:29
certainly said a couple of not very nice things, but there's never been a Protestant pogrom against Jews.
Josh Hammer 34:38
I did not know that. I'm not actually shocked to hear it. But look, I mean, there's also an earlier chapter in this book, chapter for the book, which goes on at length about the file Semitism of the American founding and talks about really, just even prior to that. Actually, I mean, Rabbi, one of the, one of my favorite parts that I learned more about. Researching this book was a story of the pilgrims themselves. I think a lot of folks you know watching this probably know that that Sir William Bradford and the Pilgrims conscientiously viewed themselves as something akin to new Israelites crossing their version of the of the Red Sea there. But I didn't quite know the level of details, actually. So. So, among the couple of fascinating tidbits that I learned, Sir William Bradford, who was, who was the captain of the Mayflower and becomes the second governor of Plymouth Colony once the ship lands,
Daniel Lapin 35:30
author of the very first history written in America. That's
Josh Hammer 35:34
right, that's right. So he was a student, as you likely know, of an Englishman by the name of of Sir Henry Ainsworth, and Sir Henry. Sir Henry Ainsworth was a late 16th century, early 17th century, Christian hebraist. This is, this is this itself is kind of an antiquated word. What is a hebraist? What is hebraism? Well, it's actually exactly what it sounds like. It is. It is someone who is a scholar of of the Hebrew Bible of Hebrew itself as a language there, and Sir William Bradford himself actually colloquially spoke roughly 1000 words give or take of Hebrew. In fact, actually the
Daniel Lapin 36:12
first bunch of pages in the history of pruner plantation. The manuscript in his own handwriting is in Hebrew. Incredible, incredible, incredible. And by the way, right here in my in my bookshelf, is my copy of the Ainsworth Bible, okay, because it about a third of the of his sources. Below the line that he quotes are Hebrew like Maimonides. So so the the pilgrims were deeply they also studied in Holland with Menasha rabbi, Menasha Ben Israel, right, the rabbi who was a friend of the painter Rembrandt. And so, yeah, as you, as you say, they were deeply, deeply drenched in Hebrew. Thought,
Josh Hammer 36:57
well, and even one of the more arcane things that I learned as well. And the historians debate this, I would be curious for your take, because you're so learned in this area. But it is. It is debated actually, whether or not when Sir William Bradford first land successfully at Plymouth colony, and he famously gets down on his knees and he prostrates himself to thank the Creator of the king, of all kings, for having landed successfully there. And there are some who claim, again, it's disputed, but there are some who claim that in that moment there, for having successfully completed an oceanic voyage and then, and then thanking God there that he was essentially imitating the Jewish bracha, the Jewish prayer of Birkat Gomel, which is the Traveler's Prayer that is said on four separate occasions, one of which is when you successfully complete a voyage over water. So it might not be the case, but it's possible. It's actually entirely possible. So
Daniel Lapin 37:54
yeah, I would agree with you. I don't have definitive information on it, but it's obviously possible. They were very, very knowledgeable. And this, this continued for a while. Ezra Stiles, a later president of Yale University, was very fluent on on Hebrew, Hebrew texts. And I mean the poet Milton, who was also part of that whole community in England was a was fluent in Aramaic. He knew some of the Aramaic interpretations and explanations on the Torah. So, yeah, absolutely. Josh, with with respect to to to the researcher and all the work that you did on your book, Israel and civilization, I want to get your take on this. What people say now is Israel is an apartheid regime, and this is based on the, on essentially the the Marxist perspective that the world is divided into black people who are the victims and White people who are the oppressors, and Israel the Palestinians are the victims, clearly, and therefore that makes Israel the oppressors. And therefore that explains why the progressive left sides against Israel. That's the argument. And I want to propose for your consideration a different thing, and I dismiss the Marxist stuff. Marx and Engel were not the brightest bulbs in the in the box. And, you know. Anybody who looks into that period and what the two of them were up to and what was happening in their lives gets a pretty good idea of what this was all about. But the important thing, I believe, is that Marx didn't invent communism. Marx didn't come up with us. He decided to ride the wave for economic reasons. It just made career sense for him. What is the wave? The wave goes back a long way, much earlier than the 19th century, and it is fundamentally a conflict between civilization and barbarism. The Bible standing for promoting and making possible, as we talked about, a little earlier civilization and the absence of the Bible, resulting almost inevitably, in a form of barbarism. Why does Japan have neither the Bible nor barbarism? Well, because already, even before World War Two, Japan deliberately and purposefully adopted Western civilization. When Japan made the decision to industrialize, that was what they did. And for a but for all the elements of civilization, talk of industrialization, for a moment, these guys are all all the early scientists who changed the world, starting with the 17th century, the the keplers, the Tycho brahes. Tycho Brahe by the way, his best friend during his Prague years was Rabbi, love of Prague the Mahara best friends because he the two of them could talk about reality. Isaac Newton himself, hook, almost that exception. You can all these great scientists who laid the foundation for modern living. These guys are all Bible believing Christians, almost without exception. So why is that? Well, one of the reasons is because in the sixth day of creation, in chapter one of Genesis, one of the words is the keyfshu Ha and conquer it, meaning, nature, don't leave yourself at the mercy of nature, one of the first principles very early in Genesis is to build cities. The first city is built by Cain. A rough population census will tell you that the population of the world was less than 10 people a city. Sure, because the city isn't built as a result of need, a city is built as an expression of civilization. And so it's not an accident that Gaza is just a huge slum. It never turned into a city. They never built a city. Monaco is a tiny, small sliver of land, also on the Mediterranean, it's a city. Gibraltar, little sliver of land. It's a city. Malta, tiny, little place. It's a city. It's a different approach. Now, interestingly enough, on the Gulf side, the Emirates, all the Arab nations on the Gulf over there, are building cities. Abu Dhabi is a fabulous Dubai. It's a great place. If you haven't yet had a vacation in Dubai, take your wife and little Esther and off you go. You can't go wrong. These are great cities today. They also happen to be the places that are happy to make peace with Israel. And so my argument is that Marx sides with barbarism, and part of that is destruction of private property and the family. Most of Exodus and all of Deuteronomy is all about private property. You literally wouldn't have half the Hebrew Bible if private property was not God's plan for human interaction, family law, all of that, as we spoke earlier, and so Marx taps into the wave of barbarism and rides it, because you're never going to lose money by investing in barbarism. The appeal for it is always there. Just ask any young male between the age of 13 and 30. City, and his natural inclination is towards barbarism. Breaking things is just more fun than building them. That's all there is to it. And so my argument is particularly if you fly over the Middle East and look down, you will see that Israel represents civilization, its cities, its agriculture, the the Bedouin, the original Arab. He accommodates to the desert. He rides a camel. He lives in a tent. He moves from place to place. There's no attempt to master the desert, certainly not to use the Genesis word conquer Israel, confronted with a third the southern half of the country is a desert. So they desalinate millions of gallons of water, and they turn the desert into a garden cities. You know, 80 years ago, 90 years ago, there's nothing on the Mediterranean coast except the ancient city of Jaffa. And today, you got Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, and at the time Mark Twain visited, just, you know, a tiny, barren, little town today, bustling, huge city. Civilization is what Israel represents, and the progressive left hates civilization. You want to venerate barbarism. You venerate Black Lives Matter. That's what you do. And and so my theory is that it's nothing to do with apartheid. It's nothing to do with or I shouldn't say nothing. But the primary battle is that the progressive left once the destruction of civilization, perhaps even recognizing subliminally that it's Bible based.
Josh Hammer 46:52
Well, that was really beautiful. And just a couple of things I will respond to there and then get to the larger points. First of all, I have been to both Dubai and Abu Dhabi. In fact, I went. I went with my wife after proposing to her, so on the same trip, actually, just a handful of days after we were fantastic. We were very impressed by Dubai, very impressed Abu Dhabi. We were only there for probably four or five hours, gorgeous, gorgeous city. Would love to spend more time there. I was very, very, very impressed by the Emirates overall, as a country there so and by the way, another example you mentioned desalination of water. How about petroleum? I mean, there's the old right? There's the old joke that the Jews wandered 40 years in the desert only to find the only plot of land in the region that doesn't have petroleum, oil, and natural gas. Turns out that's actually not true. Turns out that Israel has somehow found a way to drill offshore, primarily in the eastern Mediterranean. There, it's become something of an energy superpower, and that's obviously extraordinarily important for the particular state of Israel, when it comes to their not being too overly reliant on oil and natural gas from hostile actors. The fact that the United States has become a net energy exporter certainly, I think, assuages some of their doubts as well. But in any event, to your to your broader point, it's an extraordinarily artful point. It's one that, in retrospect, probably should have developed a little more at length in the book there, but I do note in the book that that socialism and Marxism you're talking about how so much of the Hebrew Bible is based on private property. Socialism and Marxism violate, by my count, at least two of the 10 Commandments, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not covet. I mean, arguably even more than that. But that's a great point. Yeah, it's a total non starter. It's an absolute, unequivocal non starter. One, one cannot be a believer in Torah, a believer in the Bible, and be a socialist. It's a mutually exclusive choice. You have to pick one or you have to pick the other there. And you know, the enemies of civilization, to their diabolical credit, going back a very, very long time, they understand that if you want to eradicate civilization, which you and I have roughly defined with the Bible, then it makes a lot of sense to start with the original people of the book, with the people who are called in Isaiah to be a light unto the nations. There. Again, this is diabolical, but it's also logically consistent. It actually makes a lot of sense. If your ultimate goal is to eradicate Christendom and Western capitalism. You should start with the original people of the book, Karl Marx. While we're talking about him, he understand, he understood this point very, very well, and is in his infamous essay on the Jewish question, published a few years prior to the Communist Manifesto. He's mincing. He minces no words about his intense, dripping disdain for Judaism. We might even call Karl Marx one of the 19th century's most infamous self hating Jews, we might say there. But what was his ultimate goal? I mean, his ultimate goal is not the destruction of Judaism. He's quite clear about what his ultimate goal is in that and in subsequent writings, to overthrow Western capitalism and Western Christendom there. But he understood that. That
Daniel Lapin 50:00
you've got to get rid of the Jews first, exactly
Josh Hammer 50:02
right. Exactly right there. And there we are, right at your book, exactly. And in the geopolitical context, there the same forces, whether it's the forces of wokeism, Islamism, or global neoliberalism, these three hegemonic forces that I've identified various forms of either softer or harder totalitarianism by the same exact token, Rabbi, the exact same token. It makes total sense that if you are seeking to eradicate Western civilization, the Western nation state, the post 1648, Westphalian nation state system. Where do you start with? You start with the Jewish state for the exact same reason that I think maybe, arguably, in fact, probably even more so than just wrote good old fashioned anti semitism. That is probably the reason that Israel is so disproportionately singled out at the United Nations and various tribunals like that.
Daniel Lapin 50:53
Would you, would you say that Hitler's focus was also ultimately the destruction of Western civilization,
Josh Hammer 51:02
by the same token that would, that would make a lot of sense to me. Yes. And you know, look, Nazism, by very definition of what it is, is starting from the the most clear and unequivocally anti biblical starting place possible. So in the book, I argue that Genesis, chapter one, verse 27 God made men in his image, man and woman. He He created them. I argue that that is the single foundational moral and ethical imperative for all, for basically everything today, and to, just to name one kind of example of that there, you know, I look, I'm a lawyer, I'm an American patriot. I love the Declaration of Independence. But I've often pondered, I mean, is what Thomas Jefferson wrote actually true, that we hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created evil. So, for instance, for instance, you know, would the Afghan goat, herder, uh, who's, who's a Taliban member in the mountains? Yes, would he actually deduce that it is self evident? No, he would not. Of course, he would not, because when Thomas Jefferson wrote these words, when John Locke wrote something very similar, roughly a century prior, it was done in a certain context, in a certain milieu. And this this milieu is this intergenerational biblical inheritance going all the way back to the revelation at Mount Sinai so Hitler and the Nazis are rejecting Genesis 127, they're at their core. If they stand for one proposition, it is a fundamental rejection of Genesis, chapter one, verse 27 so when you start on that, there you are getting off to a very bad start. But yes, I think it is entirely fair to say that they were seeking to overthrow civilization in their own way as well.
Daniel Lapin 52:40
Exactly, right. Yeah, beautiful, beautiful. That's very, very clarifying. I mean, one of the reasons that I'm recommending the book is because of the the pleasure that reading gives, it gives you as it helps things to fall into place. You know, it's like having a powerful flashlight on a dark night, and you can wave it around, and you can read street signs and you can see what's going on. It's just nice to banish the darkness and get some understanding of what's really happening. So when I say that, this shows about how the world really works. That's what I meant when I said the book's a perfect fit. But I want to suggest another reason that that people would find this book beneficial, and that is that in this day and age, particularly since President Donald Trump made his appearance in 2016 the the level of vituperativeness means that each and every one of us, even the most peace loving among us, And and Josh, you know, like the prophets of old, my paths are the paths of righteousness, and my ways are the ways of peace. I don't like fights and confrontations, but it's inevitable, so I've come to enjoy them, but it it's nice to have a book that gives you powerful intellectual ammunition. This, this, I read the book, and I think to myself, Okay, I need it on my shelf where I can access it really quickly and easily. And it makes me feel like I'm sitting behind a 50 caliber machine gun with a big box of belt ammunition. I've got loads of ammunition here. That's a good feeling. I like that. So that is a useful aspect of the book, which I'm sure you thought about. But it really is a nice box of ammo.
Speaker 1 54:56
Well, it genuinely means a lot to me, Rob, I've been a fan of yours for. For a very, very long time here. And, you know, part of the book is, I, you know, I, part of it is just, is just urging people to get back to basics. And, you know, as I phrased it earlier, trying to put Humpty, Dumpty back together again. You know, I'm not, I'm not proposing a new way of thinking about the world. I'm essentially just saying there is so much good that we have inherited there. Why don't we actually just go back and look at it again? I mean, let's actually, let's pause and consider the fact that on the Liberty Bell in Philadelphia, what is inscribed on the outside of Liberty Bell? Well, it's the Book of Leviticus. Thou shalt proclaim liberty throughout the land and to all the inhabitants thereof. I mean, some of the most obvious things are actually just out there staring us right in front of our face, and we just don't think about it. We don't act upon it there. And the book is so crucial for both Jews and Christians. So my message, my message to my fellow Jews, is to be a modern Maccabee that I have a whole chapter on that there I personally am, and Baal teshuva, as I mentioned earlier, I was raised secular, and have you have become religious there. And my message to my fellow Jews is you really should try to be a light unto the nations in the true sense of what the book of Isaiah is talking about. There do as many mitzvot, as many commandments as you possibly can be. It be a very public, dare I say, even defiant supporter of the Jewish people of Israel, of the Jewish state of Eretz, Yisrael, the land of Israel there. Do whatever you can. And I even have some more controversial parts. So I say that every Jew should become well equipped with firearm ownership there. I mean that to me. That's actually part of being a modern Mac. Could be, after all, Psalms, chapter 144, trained my figures for war. It's the very first verse there in Psalms, chapter 144, so there's a lot in there for my fellow Jews, but the message is arguably even more important right now for Christians, you know, for our biblical Brothers in Arms, Rabbi, because we do live in a time right now where there are certain People with increasing frequency. They're still small, but they're getting louder in certain pockets of the nominal or purported right who are trying to drive this chasm, trying to drive this wedge between the original people of the Book, the Jewish people, and the great Gentile offshoot Christians who built what we today called Western civilization. And we cannot let it happen. We literally cannot let it happen. The the Jewish reason why it cannot happen, I think, is pretty self explanatory, but the lesson for the Christians as well is again, going back in history there, there's a lot of debate in Christian Zionist circles as to the theological importance of Genesis. Chapter 12, verse three, that God shall bless those who bless the children of Israel. Mike Huckabee, God bless him. An amazing man is now set to be our next US, ambassador to Israel. He believes this with every five of his being. But my point is, it doesn't actually matter, frankly, for the Christian, whether or not you theologically believe that there, it empirically actually happens to be the case when you look back in global history there. I cannot think of a single example where the Jewish population of a given country, city, nation or whatnot, has flourished and the broad society has not, in turn flourished. Likewise, I can't think of a single example where the society has turned on the Jews and discriminated them and oppressed them and so forth, and has been better off for it there. So I care deeply, deeply about the future of the Jewish people, not merely as a Jew, but I also care as an American, as an American patriot who loves my country with every fiber of my being, and when I see rising anti semitism, even here in a land where so many thought it could not possibly take roots, to me that is a five alarm siren, not merely but the future of Jews here in America, but just the future of America, period.
Daniel Lapin 58:47
Right, right? Yeah, it the book. The book is absolutely terrific, Josh. And thank you so much. I can't congratulate you enough, and I look forward to it being the first of of many books, thank you. You really have a huge contribution to make, and you are making it. So I hope your work at Newsweek continues to be as successful as it has been, and that your family is blessed and and that your work in in writing and promoting the alliance between Israel and Christianity and essentially the coherent integrity of what we call Western civilization, of which Israel is a core component. Strip it out, and what's left won't survive. I think that's very clear. So ladies and gentlemen, I hope you've enjoyed the conversation with Josh as much as I have, and the book is called Israel and civilization, the fate of. Of the Jewish nation and the destiny of the West. Josh, hold it up for people who see just one more time, it's a it's a handsome cover and a terrific book. There it is, Israel and civilization, the fate of the Jewish nation and the destiny of the West. A great title for a great book. Josh, thank you very much indeed for being part of us and being together with me on the show. Please do not come to my part of the country without letting me know, and I will undertake to do exactly the same. Thank you again. It's been a pleasure seeing you, even if digitally, and a pleasure getting to know your terrific book. I really do feel that it sheds light on the critical, inter country, geo political, moral dilemmas of today and and, more importantly, even provides a matrix by means of which we can more easily understand the way in which the future of Western civilization is so inextricably bound up with The future of the land of Israel. So until next week, happy warriors, I your rabbi. Remind you first of all, our website is Rabbi Daniel lapin.com I remind you also that we have a number of our books on special sale. Happens to be one of those genuine Inventory Clearance situations. We're not going to be stocking these books on demand anymore, but there are a few left, and you can get them for the price of a cup of coffee. So at Rabbi Daniel lapin.com they await your attention. Thank you for being part of the happy warrior community, and remember that there is a special bonus podcast available, especially for you on your we happy warriors website, until next week. I am your rabbi, wishing you a week of growth in your family and your finances, your faith, your friendships and your fitness. God bless you.
